Will Possession, Sales or Use of Tobacco in Washington Become a Class C Felony?

by lewwaters

In a move sure to please city council critter Jeanne Harris, a group calling themselves ‘Tobacco-Free Washington’ has gotten approval for a new citizen’s initiative that would make the use of any tobacco product in Washington State a Class C felony!

Proposed by a Seattle based Dentist, Dr. Edward Dolan, a 1996 Western Washington University graduate, and director of the World Lung Association, in Medina, Wa., the measure is designed to “make the sale, manufacture, or possession of tobacco products a Class C felony and redefine tobacco products as including ‘any product containing tobacco or nicotine that is expected or intended for human consumption’.”

The initiative has received approval from the Secretary of State and assigned the number of “512.”

From page 3 of “Initiative 512”

NEW SECTION. Sec. 2. A new section is added to chapter 9.91 RCW to read as follows:

(1) It is unlawful to sell, manufacture, or possess any tobacco products including, but not limited to, cigarettes, cigars, and smokeless tobacco.

(2) A person who:

(a) Sells or manufactures any tobacco product is guilty of a class B felony punishable according to chapter 9A.20 RCW; or

(b) Possesses any tobacco product is guilty of a class C felony punishable according to chapter 9A.20 RCW.

(3) For the purposes of this section, “tobacco product” includes any product containing tobacco or nicotine that is expected or intended for human consumption.

Few people defend tobacco use any longer and anytime we defend our freedom of choice, we are automatically labeled as defending big tobacco, wanting to hurt children, having no compassion, you name it.

But, in all of these efforts to demonize tobacco users and pushing smokers further and further into the back allies is the disproportionate amount of taxes the state collects off of tobacco, at a time they are crying not having enough revenue from our taxes to maintain budgets.

Prohibition of alcohol failed miserably back in the 1920’s and total bans of tobacco have not yet received much favor. Partial bans, like we saw when smokers were ushered outside and more recently as they are told they must not use tobacco of any nature within Vancouver Parks have found favor with many.

Such a total ban that would have only made the use of tobacco a misdemeanor was tried by North Dakota in 2003. Their legislature defeated the Republican proposed measure with a vote of 88 to 4.

Their measure received heavy opposition from anti-tobacco groups that testified against the tobacco ban, such as “the North Dakota Medical Association, American Heart Association, American Cancer Society, American Lung Association, North Dakota Public Health Association and North Dakota Nurses Association.” They claimed, “There’s no evidence banning tobacco would prevent and reduce tobacco use because no such approach has been implemented.”

There was also the strong probability that such a ban would have taken away much of the funding for these groups for their tobacco control programs.

Legislators admitted also that the state was “hooked on tobacco,” even though many did not smoke. Republican Wes Belter admitted, “It is time for us to think about just how hooked we are on tobacco, whether we smoke or not,” recognizing then how states are dependent upon tobacco taxes.

At a rate of $3.025 tax per pack of 20 cigarettes, it is easy to see how profitable tobacco is for Washington State and should this initiative collect enough signatures to make it on the ballot and win voter approval that would be many millions of dollars in tax revenue the state will lose.

In what can only be labeled ironic, as signatures are being gathered to make smokers felons, signatures are also being gathered to legalize marijuana in Washington State. In spite of claims by potheads on how “safe” marijuana is, has been shown to carry many of the same harmful effects as claimed for tobacco.

Ultimately though, as we see more and more of these efforts coming down the pike, voters must begin thinking just how far are they willing to go in efforts to “change cultural behaviors,” as Harris put it.

Is it really beneficial to make smokers felons and lose their tax dollars as the state’s budget gap continues to grow?

49 Comments to “Will Possession, Sales or Use of Tobacco in Washington Become a Class C Felony?”

  1. Prohibition doesn’t work. It didn’t work for alchohol, doesn’t work for marijuana, and won’t work for tobacco.

    In addition, this propoed law would immediately run afoul of recent SCOTUS rulings regarding interstate commerce and federally-regulated products (much as I personally dislike their positions on these matters).

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  2. Even if the tobacco lobby didn’t fight this (which of course they should and would), I find it hard to believe that a majority of Washingtonians would vote for the bill. Besides the obvious damage to the economy it would cause, it would be as unenforceable as the prohibition of alcohol was.

    Lew – thanks for the nih link. Assuming the information they’ve posted on mj is accurate it still doesn’t justify prohibition.

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  3. Does this doctor really think medical science will not solve lung cancer in the next 30 years (or however long it typically takes be harmed from smoking)? Why does he want to ban nicotine, when it is probably NOT the harmful agent.

    Why not dedicate the efforts to getting long term smokers to stop before the harmful effects set in. Let younger people smoke, based on the assumption that medical science will be able to cure the harmful effects by the time they occur.

    Of course this concept is repulse to two groups of people:
    1–The do-gooders who MUST tell others how to live (Road to hell…)
    2–Those who do not think man will make any progress from here.

    Thanks
    JK

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  4. Do not over-estimate the intelligence of the Washington State Voter, a species that has brought us decades of leftist idiocy in government and the tyrany of the minority with the state-wide indoor smoking ban (And I’ve never smoked a day in my life….; hate it, in fact)

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  5. I think it just shows what a bunch of brainless, hysterical zealots anti-smokers are. Some really sick pukes.

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  6. Just make pot legal already. Stop locking us in cages for doing something that is harming absolutely no one including ourselves.

    Pot has killed a total of zero people in its entire existence.

    That’s ZERO EVER.

    Nice post! 🙂

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  7. I will sue them for discrimination and infringement on my freedom of choice. I am beginning to dispise these people in this state. I am going to start insisting that they all attend group therapy on thursdays and church on Sunday and I will tell them which group and which church. We will need to ban football since it is just to dangerous for our health and Hot Dogs too!

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  8. I do believe in letting people be people as long as they don’t infringe on my right to live as I see fit. Kind of like the old karma rule, “do unto others, as you would do unto them?”

    If this means that a smoker becomes a ward of the state because of a habit, then YES, you are making it other people’s business because you chose a habit that most common sense people understand to be harmful to their health. And when you take money through government subsidy, along with goes the strings.

    Now if you are just some average smoker, most generally are good people and won’t create a big stink or scene. They just want to light up, relax and enjoy some thing in their own solitude.

    What bothers me about this post, is it seems that someone wants to criminalize with felonious behaviors like murder, tax cheating and other serious cancerous idiots on our society. I simply believe this whole concept on making smoking a felony to be wrong?

    How are these idiots going to take into account the smoke tobacco that may be used in ceremonial or tribal rights? There are a number of tribes in Washington state that I remember MAKE tobacco products. The state has no sovereign jurisdiction, though I know many multitudes, they have butted their nose into affairs…

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  9. The “Felony” business just shows how ridiculously hysterical anti-smokers are. Anti-smokers are some really sick people.

    The whole idea is akin to hanging someone for a parking ticket.

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  10. Don’t give them any ideas, Jack 😉

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  11. Although I’d prefer outlawing of tobacco products out of my own personal reasons (losing my father to complications of cigarette smoking), I would find it to be like cutting off the signing hand of our government leaders if even state laws were implemented such as what was mentioned in this article. The tobacco industry supports far too many charitable organizations with their donations. To get an idea of what I speak, here’s a link which shows what one tobacco organization donates:

    http://www.pmi.com/eng/about_us/corporate_contributions/documents/2010_charitable_contributions_total.pdf

    Also, companies like Philip Morris as so tied up in government…
    it would disable our economic climate at disastrous proportions. Plus, the politicians would definitely feel the pinch should the tobacco industry be forced into outlawing sale and possession of cigarettes/cigars/chaw. Here’s another link which pretty much explains what I speak:

    http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Altria_Group#Political_contributions

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  12. Oops…that should say “Also, companies like Philip Morris ARE so tied up…” Sorry about that.

    Furthermore, everyone should be screaming at our state governing body for even trying to go up against such a resolution as it is a complete waste of taxpayer dollars to take the time to research and implement such a proposal. Till our government reduces or eliminates their dependency on the tobacco industry, they need to stop wasting our tax dollars on such nonsensical posturing to get votes for upcoming elections.

    Jeanne Harris…

    well, I won’t say what’s REALLY on my mind.

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  13. Ya can’t stop them from making stupid laws, all ya can do is ask why they aren’t enforcing the ones on the books first? An example is the new group homes that they county is trying to enact. They want them to go in front of the area Neighborhood Association, giving NA the rights to close them down and require 6 foot fencing besides abiding by the laws that they are required by the State to get their license. First the County can’t require fencing that is in the hands of the Hearing Examiner as the county has min on fencing laws. Second that creates a special interest group and third the county can’t enforce the laws on the books why create more when they should focus on the illegal homes that are popping up? Isn’t that their only job on these?

    Smoking is a health hazard just like illegal burning so where is the higher taxes or the fines, come on here enforce the laws on the books!!

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  14. Sign the petition as quickly as you can. This is simply a PR piece with pro ban trying to present themselves as wanting nicotine selling banned. It is the LAST thing they want, and this will make them tell the truth. This is about money from nicotine replacement pharma , Johnson and Johnson, and their “philanthropic foundation” which created Tobacco Free for the purpose of promoting bans in businesses. All for the purpse of ostracizing American citizens onto the products of J&J. Nicoderm, Nicorette, Nicotrol, NIcoderm CQ. Funding for Tobacco Free is from Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, who makes grants from their holdings of J&J stock. FOLLOW THE MONEY!

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  15. Goldenoldie, cutting off the signing hand–well, okay, just taking away the pens–of our government leaders would be a great idea 90% of the time. What took you so long to think of that? 🙂

    I think outlawing smoking is a lousy idea, for personal freedoms v. nanny state reasons. But I also think that making the decision on the basis of how much Philip Morris gives to charity, or how much havoc it would wreak in government, is a bad idea as well. *If* it were a good idea on other grounds, we’d need to stiffen our spines and deal with the economic impact, not stay spinelessly glued to the teat.

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  16. Cry…I’ve felt this way about the issue for a long time. We all know who has the strong arm holding our government from going under…and it’s at the expense of the taxpayers. As Sheila has pointed out, Big Pharma plays a major role in this whole game of manipulation of society. Without companies like Mickey D’s and Philip Morris (nevermind the crap they’re adding to the cancer sticks), there wouldn’t be the need for Big Pharma to control the addiction. Without Big Pharma, there’d be no healthcare industry as the push for medication for just about every facet in our lives right down to constipation issues wouldn’t be there. Glad to see people are definitely waking up.

    Why do I push for everyone to seek homeopathic remedies??? Because the cures for the majority of our ills is in our control. All anybody has to do is their own research. Not saying there aren’t conditions or diseases that could be cured homeopathically, but the majority of them are. Take for instance…Social Anxiety Disorder. First thing your doctor would recommend is psychological help and antidepressants (Big Pharma once again). Well, anybody could google the condition (which btw is acceptable in obtaining SSI disability benefits) and achieve their own treatment. Heck, half the time, the conditions we ALL face are dietary/exercise treatable.

    And you know those nasty cluster headaches or migraines??? Dietary! I found in my case I had to eliminate Ferrous Sulfate, a chemically-engineered iron supplement. The sulphates in my vitamin was throwing me into blinding migraines…even had CAT scans prior to my discovery…on my own! Later on, the migraine had returned after taking Darvocet-N for an injury I’d suffered…ONE Darvocet-N. Of course, the hospital wanted me to have a scan once again. I knew what it was…but they had to check everything out before releasing me from the hospital. For pain now…accupressure, accupuncture, R&R and Tiger Balm on occasion.

    My point is…we can all fight Big Pharma and companies like Philip Morris and Johnson & Johnson by controlling our own lives.

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  17. Oh…and that Philip Morris company??? They own Kraft Foods. Just check the labels once in awhile and you’ll find the additives. I won’t even get into what is inside Kraft Macaroni and Cheese in the little blue box…or Kraft American Singles.

    Need I say more???

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  18. Goldie ~ Maybe you should get out a box of that Macaroni thing and say Cheese Whiz to the camera while it clicks…. 🙂

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  19. I think it’s high time to put a stop to the nanny government and this stupid idea of banning something just because a few people “don’t like it”.

    There will always be some nutcases that don’t like anything other people do, and if we don’t put a stop to it pretty soon nobody will be able to do anything.

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  20. Let’s expound on this “nannyism” a little further: Many people own pets. Pets cause lots of serious injury, damage, disease, and deaths every year. Pets cost American society millions and millions of dollars. There are a number of people that hate pets and don’t think that anyone should be allowed to keep pets.

    Therefore we should outlaw pet ownership completely and make the possession of a pet a felony.

    Same thing.

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  21. Jeremy….

    EW!

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  22. Goldie ~ Phillip Morris and Kraft foods really does need your input on how to improve their marketing capability? 🙂

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  23. Jeremy, they don’t need my help. All they have to do is look at the health of the people they serve. The end justifies the mean. Too bad profits are more important than people, though.

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  24. Goldie, their job is to supply people with the products that people want, not to “nanny” people. Where did you ever get the idea that companies are supposed to be “nags”?

    As far as the “health” of people goes, you do know that American life expectancy goes up every year, don’t you? People live longer than we ever have.

    Not only that, but do you realize that in the final years that most people are little more than “vegetables” anyway? What’s the purpose in living another 10 years or so totally incapacitated, hooked up to tubes and wearing diapers?

    The bottom line is that no matter what you do you’re going to die anyway. Sad to say, but when it’s over, it’s really “over”.

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  25. Jack, my friend…have you ever heard of the phrase “Creative Advertising” and the word “brainwashing???” Commercialism sells, Jack. Maybe you should check the obituaries around the country and see who’s dying. Life expectancy might be getting older for some but not for all. There are young children still dying as a result of the habits of their parents.

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  26. Goldie, I’m well aware that anybody of any age can get hit by a car and die or drown in a bathtub. I’m also aware that lots of people are gullible enough to think that they can somehow “extend their life” by eating nutritional supplements.

    That being said, I seriously doubt that any American doesn’t know the dangers of using tobacco or eating Mac & Cheeze, or drinking and driving.

    Companies aren’t there to protect people from themselves. Companies exist to sell a product or a service. That’s what makes the Economy go ’round. It’s up to the individual to make their own “choices”.

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  27. Nutritional supplements??? Heck, even those are loaded down with chemicals…and the fresh fruit and veggies in most stores are picked green and lose their nutritive value by the time they ripen. Jack, I’m speaking of folks growing and eating their own produce. For those who say there’s no space at apartments…there’s community gardens everywhere. Also Jack, I speak of not eating out of a box or prepackaged junk. And Jack, I could give you a dozen examples EASILY of people who have lived this lifestyle I speak…folks whose family longevity was not as long as the folks who I speak of. You can deny it all you want and that’s fine. I have no problem with that. All I can tell you is that half the battle of aging is how you perceive it…and how you take control of your life. If you have the mentality that as you get old, life stops and you will wear diapers and be hooked up to tubes…then that’s your destiny. I’ll give you three examples of the dozen or more elderly folks I know: I have a very dear friend…she is now sporting the young age of 100, bless her heart…and she’s still going…no diapers, no IV’s, and definitely not incapacitated. Okay…she doesn’t drive but she never did in the first place. I asked her what her secret to a long life was and she replied…

    “Stay away from the junk food, exercise and think positive. If you don’t know what’s in the food you’re eating, it’s probably not good for you.”

    My husband’s coworker…84 yrs young and still going strong. You wouldn’t even know he’s the age he is by the energy he shows. His secret??? If he doesn’t keep busy, he stops living and he doesn’t want to get like his other friends who act old.

    Then there’s our longtime family friend who at 83 yrs young, still runs his restaurant and has quite a clientele. His restaurant in Portland is well known in it’s neighborhood. Why does he keep going??? Because he cares. BTW, he’s still driving and has an excellent driving record. He’s sharp as a whip and is always on the go. His advice…everything in moderation and keep active.

    BTW, none of the three have ever smoked a day in their lives and they have watched what they ate and have kept active over the years. Are they wrong???

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  28. I didn’t say they are “wrong”, Goldie. All I say is that we have very little control over our eventual “destiny” and blaming “companies” for that is a little ridiculous.

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  29. Jack, I blame the actions of those whose tactics in commercialism over the years that have convinced people that their product is what the consumers want when in all actuality, the only reasoning behind the promotion of products they KNOW is unhealthy is in order to fatten their own pockets with ka-ching…it’s a power control thing with them. Once the consumer is hooked on the product, it takes doctors and BIG Pharma to fix the problem resulting from consuming the products…or so they think! 9 times out of 10, the procedure didn’t work or the medications have lasting side effects which in return need other medications to counter the nasty side effects and THOSE medications have their own issues…like a revolving door.

    Whenever I hear of people taking a medication cocktail of 12 or more types of meds…that boils my blood. Chances are, at least one or more of the pills are being taken to lower blood pressure due to the side effects of another pill causing high blood pressure or to prevent lasting damage to another vital organ. For example, thyroid medications are supposed to help those with hypothyroidism or goiter…but they can do damage to your kidneys and liver. I’m not saying the risks outweigh the need to take the meds…I’m just saying that if people would have taken on a regimen of eating what could have prevented the condition(s) or reduces the ill effects of certain conditions along with proper exercise, most illnesses today could have been prevented…thus, extending the QUALITY of life for the person.

    Bear in mind Jack, I’m not against capitalism. I’m against those who abuse the capitalistic mindset in order to profit from the consumers. Take a moment to think why the folks who head these mega companies are in the top 1%. Heck, I’d rather be in the other 99% any day. My conscience would play on me consistently. Those in the top 1% don’t have a wink of compassion for the consumers…only their pocketbooks.

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  30. And Jack…in my case, what I have is a genetic issue with my spinal condition which has slowed me down from how active I used to be. Oh, I still go out and exercise, taking brisk walks each week and working in the garden, but I’ve had to adjust my diet to prevent other issues…and that’s my point. We are a pill-popping society, mainly due to the commercialism of BIG PHARMA. If there’s a condition which the pill might help, they have it…never mind the side effects and complications. And as far as cancer sticks are concerned…everyone knows the addictive concerns…but the Marlboro Man wins over the minds of the consumers.

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  31. All this talk of capitalism and control over us by the corporate entities misses the larger picture of this proposed initiative I think.
    That being the control by way of legislation of personal liberties and freedoms.

    Watch out folks. This kind of thinking and action will pave the way for someone coming after you and your own way of life eventually.

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  32. This is over one thing- control. This is psy-ops, don’t forget that. Prohibition and criminalization of “normal” behavior is part of the Communist agenda.

    Obesity is a far greater problem than the 17% of the population who smoke. Why not issue a law making it a felony to ingest more than 1200 calories a day? In parts of the Third World, people live on half that…not comfortably, but they survive. They’re not productive, but since when does the government want people working, when they could be 100% dependent on The State (Weaselton, DC)? That is the Utopia they desire.

    So outlaw food instead of cigarettes. Make it a felony punishable by 20 years of hard labor, on 600 calories a day- a virtual death sentence- and keep them in kamps run by the SA, erm, FEMA. Let’s see how much more control the Federal State has then.

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  33. This is exactly the reason I am stocking up on tobacco and ammo.

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  34. “This is over one thing- control.”

    All the more reason to take control of your own destiny, your own health and your own life.

    ..

    dave takis, your tobacco will go stale and be worthless in large quantities. What will you do when you run out or the “stash” goes bad? Better to find a different vice, in my opinion. Besides…if you think the price is bad now on cancer sticks…you ain’t seen nuthin’ yet!

    Regarding the ammo…are you that sure you’d be ready to defend yourself in such a manner? It’s easy to have the ammunition but to be poised to take a person’s life??? Not everyone is capable of doing such…but if it’s for hunting game to survive…I’m all for it.

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  35. Apparently you don’t know that Tobacco grows well in the pacific northwest, Goldie. Anybody can grow their own. I’ve been growing Tobacco for four years now and I never have a shortage of people who want it and use it.

    Seeds and supplies can be obtained online for anyone who wants to grow their own crop.

    Better be ready to take some lives, Goldie. There is definitely bloody Revolution coming and our tyrannical government will be the first target.

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  36. I’m already aware of the ability to grow it here. Does that make it healthier for you? Probably because it doesn’t have the additives put in cancer sticks. Regarding the “bloody revolution,” you speak of…that may be so but not everyone is willing to hold a gun and taking the life of another.

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  37. I can brew my own beer. Is that “healthy” for me? I can distill my own whiskey. Is that “healthy”? People “want” a lot of things, most of which someone else wouldn’t think is “healthy” for them.

    I’d say it’s my life, and I’ll judge what is “healthy” for me. Everybody else can mind their own goddamned business.

    It’s pretty simple Goldie, in a Revolution you either kill or you will be killed. Revolutions are not the place to try to sing “Kumbaya”.

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  38. Someone’s praying, Lord…Kumbaya! Oh Lord…Kumbaya! (Nicely sung by Peter, Paul and Mary)

    Sorry Jack, but I’m keeping my faith that things will turn for the better in the next year to year and a half (not soon enough, though). Whatever happens, we should all be ready for anything whether it’s that “Revolution” you speak of or even the worst winter weather event we’ve seen in 70 years should this high pressure move off the coast. I’m not living with the mindset that we are facing a “Kill or be Killed” scenario. Be my guest if that’s what toots your whistle. It’s that old half full versus half empty glass thing, you know.

    Speaking about that half full cup thing…As far as Beer or Whiskey is concerned, someone had to promote the product through advertisement or you wouldn’t have known it existed. And Jack, you’d still have to buy your hops and yeast and grains for whatever it is you would be a cookin’. How would you know where to buy if there wasn’t advertising??? (Ha HA!!!! Gotcha! Didn’t we used to do this back and forth on the C last year??? Must be the air from someone’s coal heater in Felida is wafting towards the southern edge of Brush Prairie or something.)

    And regarding advertising, honesty is ALWAYS the best policy but it is obviously absent in the minds of those in the top 1%.

    You know, I truly enjoy when we both play the cards dealt from each side of the playing table, Jack. You’re great for keeping my brain a hoppin’!!!

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  39. Gee Goldie, “Kumbaya” started out in the 20’s, was recorded by The Folksmiths in 1957, Pete Seeger in 1958, the Weavers in 1959, Joan Baez in 1962, Tommy Leonetti in 1969, The Sandpipers in 1969, and finally by Peter Paul & Mary in 1998.

    “Kumbaya” has no “formal definition”, Btw. It’s totally “made up” sort of like “La Bamba”. (Ritchie Valens spoke very little Spanish).

    It has become the symbol and “hymn” of the limp-wristed Liberal Left Kool-Aid Drinkers, though.

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  40. Kumbaya in Gullah (South Carolina/Georgia Creole) translates into “Come by Here.”

    Kumbaya has also been sung by the Girl Scouts for decades. I clearly remember singing it as a girl scout back in the 60’s. It is a song of peace and of faith…and should not be looked down upon with the attempts at negative labels. As a child, I remember rainbows used to mean good luck and if you saw a double rainbow…double good luck. To storm watchers, it is good luck because the wrath of nature has passed….and a segment of our society utilizes the rainbow as a symbol. Does it mean we should frown upon beliefs we hold dear just because others use it for their publicity? Heck, next you’ll be telling me that the stars on the US flag no longer represent our 50 states because there’s stars on the Chinese Flag.

    Thanks for your take on it, but I’ll keep singing Kumbaya when I hear it. It brings good memories of my childhood which BTW was an “R” household…still is today, too! And I still prefer P, P & M’s version.

    And La Bamba??? That was never sung by the girl scouts….8P

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  41. Oh, I’m sure the girls all learned how to “sing” to it, once they learned what “La Bomba” was all about, Goldie. 8p

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  42. lol… La Bamba… That was sure from a LONG time ago…

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  43. It was all butchered “Spanglish”, too. “La Bomba” translates to “the Pump”. I don’t think there’s any “soy” in the “marinaro” sauce either, with or without “una poca de gracia” (a little grace).

    You can figure the rest. Total nonsense.

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  44. dave takis, your tobacco will go stale and be worthless in large quantities. What will you do when you run out or the “stash” goes bad? Better to find a different vice, in my opinion. Besides…if you think the price is bad now on cancer sticks…you ain’t seen nuthin’ yet!

    Regarding the ammo…are you that sure you’d be ready to defend yourself in such a manner? It’s easy to have the ammunition but to be poised to take a person’s life??? Not everyone is capable of doing such…but if it’s for hunting game to survive…I’m all for it.

    I am a pipe smoker and have many tine/mason jars full of tobac. Wont go stale, trust me. Am I prepared to take a human life? Yes. There have been occasions in the last few years at my house when we were broken into, I had my gun, they ran. Yes, to protect my freedom, my property and most importantly THE CONSTITUITION AS WRITTEN, yes I am well prepared to take the life of anyone violating that.

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  45. I am not advocating violence against the government. However I do believe that withing the decade, people will have had enough and no longer revolt at the ballot box. Why do you think that guns and ammo sales have spiked over the last 4 years. People are afraid and sick and tired. Just remeber what Thomas Jefferson said,” When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. “The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. “

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  46. Maybe Jack’s suggestion of growing your own might be more beneficial to you, Dave. Regarding holding a gun to an intruder, my husband has had to do such a move years ago when the kids were young…and this dude who is now at the State Penitentiary was a nasty one. He’d hurt several women, held them hostage, threatened to kill their kids, robbed several homes, stole a weapon or two and jacked many a vehicle on his rampage which stemmed over four states. He didn’t have good luck with us though, thank God. And in my case, if someone threatened me in a manner of home invasion, I’d have no recourse but to defend myself and I’m fully aware of how to lock and load. Pointing at the person would be highly difficult…and if I had no other choice………………..

    Takis, huh…a bit on the Hellenic side I presume??? Just curious. If so, I wish you a “Καλά Χριστούγεννα και Ευτυχισμένο το Νέο Έτος” which to others, the translation means Merry Christmas and Happy New Year in Greek. (Yes, I have Greek relatives).

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  47. Jack, I’m pretty sure little ten-year-old girls in the 60’s who sold Girl Scout Cookies, wanted to earn goodwill badges for helping the elderly, first aid, sewing, good deeds and such…would want to sing La Bamba.

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  48. Goldenoldie,
    Same to you! My grandfather came to the USA in 1908 from Zakynthos. My dad was a navy officer in WW 2 & Korea. I wish I could speak and read Greek.

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  49. Nice!!! Beautiful beaches there – white sands, crystal-clear blue water. My in-laws are originally from North Central Greece, north of Larissa, close to Mt. Olympus. Now they’re also in Athens, Thessaloniki… Australia, Austria, Canada, Germany and here in the US. BTW, there are books out there which teach basic Greek Language if you’re interested.

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